S.2 Ep. 47: Built to Conform, Born to Question: Ariel Sullivan on Conform & Beneath

🎙️ Welcome back to The Mythic Mic Podcast, where stories hold a mirror to humanity, grief has many faces, and fantasy dares to ask what happens when the world stops making sense.

This week, co-host Sara Santillan is joined by Mythic Mic Rep Britt and author Ariel Sullivan for a deeply powerful and thought-provoking conversation about her dystopian romance Conform and its highly anticipated prequel, Beneath. 

Ariel opens up about her writing journey, from discovering her love of storytelling at just eight years old to navigating the challenges of imposter syndrome, rejection, and finding her voice. She shares candidly about how Conform was born during one of the lowest points in her life, becoming both an escape and a lifeline during postpartum depression and the chaos of COVID. 

We dive into the world of Conform, a dystopian society where your worth is determined by your genetics and humanity is divided into rigid, oppressive classes. Ariel unpacks the layered themes of duality, power, and perspective—and why she intentionally wrote a protagonist who refuses to see the world in black and white. At the center of it all is Emeline, a character who stands in the gray, challenging systems, questioning narratives, and forcing readers to confront uncomfortable truths about division, control, and what it really means to understand one another.

We also explore Beneath, Ariel’s ambitious prequel that takes readers 200 years into the past to uncover the origins of this fractured world. With heavier emotional stakes, found family dynamics, and a raw exploration of grief and survival, Beneath expands the universe in ways that deepen every moment of Conform.

🩸 What happens when a society decides your worth before you’re even born?
🔥 Can standing in the gray be the most dangerous choice of all?
⚔️ And what does it mean to hold onto humanity when everything around you demands conformity?

This is a must-listen for dystopian lovers, emotionally driven readers, and anyone who believes stories should challenge, heal, and stay with you.

🔥 IN THIS EPISODE, WE TALK ABOUT:

✨ Ariel’s journey from fanfiction to published author.
✨ Overcoming imposter syndrome and finding confidence as a writer.
✨ Writing Conform during postpartum depression and COVID.
✨ The inspiration behind the dystopian world and its class divisions.
✨ Why Emeline chooses to stand in the gray instead of picking sides.
✨ Exploring duality through character, color, and conflict.
✨ Crafting world-building as a “character” with its own motivations.
✨ The balance between romance, rebellion, and societal commentary.
✨ The emotional depth behind Beneath and its focus on grief.
✨ How different stages of grief are represented through characters.
✨ The decision to write a prequel before continuing the main story.
✨ What readers can expect from the next installment (Core) 👀

CONNECT WITH US

🎙️ The Mythic Mic Podcast – @MythicMic
👤 Sara Santillan – @the_magical_quill
👤 Britt (Mythic Mic Rep) - @BrittBooksIt
📚 Ariel Sullivan – @ArielHSullivan

✨ If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review. It helps more fantasy readers and aspiring authors find their way to The Mythic Mic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Mythic Mike Podcast, where myths, magic, and legendary stories come to life. Join your hosts, Bethany Amanda and Sarah Santillon, passionate authors, book collectors, and lovers of all things fantasy and romantic as they dive into epic worlds, enchanting tropes, and the books that leave us breathless. The Mythic Mike is your getaway to the magic of fantasy fiction. So grab your favorite bookish beverage. Settle in, and let's step into the extraordinary. Now, here are your hosts.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Mythic Mic podcast. I'm Sarah, and today I have an amazing co-host of Britney. Hi, Brittany. Hi, so glad to be here. And today we have an amazing author. Her name is Ariel Sullivan. Hi, Ariel. Hi, thanks for having me. And we're going to be talking about her book Conform and if she wants to give us the deeds on her new book, Beneath. So let's get into it. For listeners meeting you for the first time, who are you beyond your author bio?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Oh, I mean, not that exciting, to be honest. I'm a mom of two boys who keep me busy when I'm not writing. I like to cook and bake. Um, and that's about it and read. I'm a pretty boring person. It's not that thrilling over here, but uh, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yeah. I mean, uh sh I have two boys and one girl. And two boys, that's your whole like you're on your feet all day, every day, forever. Yes. But that's life. If you were to trace your writing journey back to its roots, where do you think it began? What was that moment where you're like, I want to be a writer and I want to get paid?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

The get paid part came way later, but the I want to be a writer started when I was eight. I finished the Phantom Twell booth. And when I finished it, I got done. And at a young age, I was like, that's the coolest thing I've ever read or done. And I want to do that for somebody because it was such an escape. I'm a military brat, so I moved every two years. And so reading was really that safe space for me as I like met new people and new schools. And so I read that book on a move, and it changed everything for me. And then throughout my life, I've written short stories, novels, um, a fanfic that's somewhere out on the internet, and also poems. And so I just knew I always wanted to. And then it took a pretty long time until I actually sat down and said, no, I'm gonna do it. And I think I just needed the right story to really push me to the next step.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

I would love to know how many authors started out as fanfic writers. That's so great. Like way back in the day, live journals. In the day, FF.net, girl, those those things.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yep, back in 2005. It was Hermione and Draco, very angsty. I love Enemies to Lovers. I mean, now it's like a big thing again. So I'm like, look, I was just ahead of my time. I think there's so much freedom in fanfiction because you get to like kind of discover your voice while not having to craft a world. And I think that's really a great practice for writers to do is to kind of like find out how you like dialogue, find out how you like to move a scene from one to the next. And then you can get to the point where you're actually like crafting all of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Um, you would be surprised a lot of authors start with like AO3 or fanfic. Yeah. It's it's like she was saying, it's a nice little placeholder to be able to play with these characters and form your own craft and writing style. But we get a lot of people, and I'm like, oh, I want to find all your stories.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, exactly. I'd like to think mine's not still out there, but I never deleted it. I also never finished it, so don't go find it because it's not gonna help you.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

What were some of the hardest moments for your publication? So you were saying it took you some time to really like find the story that you wanted to make this a career. What was that like reservation, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

My own inner critic, my own inner voice. I was definitely in my own way long before anybody else started rejecting the book because Conform did get rejected quite a bit. But every time I started a book, like I said, I dabbled in a lot. And sooner or later, that inner voice who told me I couldn't do it one every time, and I gave up. And that was just a me thing and a growth thing that I had to get out of my own way. And oddly enough, it took having postpartum depression after my second child. And I was in such a low place that I think typically that's like very disheartening. But for me, all the pressure was off because I felt like I had absolutely nothing to lose. Like I was just looking for an escape and something to like keep me going at that place. And oddly enough, that was also during COVID. So the outside world was very scary and it looked like my interior world. And so it kind of created this perfect storm where my inner voice was just silent because I was in such a bad place. And so I started to write this and I like to joke, but it's it's not really a joke. Like conform is really the ladder that got me out of that low place. Um, and I'm very thankful for it. I also went to traditional therapy because I feel like if you're gonna talk about mental health, if you're struggling, you should seek somebody out because that helped me immensely in ways that the writing couldn't. But yeah, that was really what got out of my own way is feeling so low that I had nothing to lose. And I dove in, and by the time I'd had like really gotten there, I was looking at nine books.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Wow. That's incredible. COVID was tough. I had my daughter during COVID and I have postpartum anxiety. So I'm on the other spectrum of worry and you know, everything is the world is going to end.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yes, yes, and that coupled with COVID is very difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

And traditional mental health is important, everyone. Yeah. Go talk to someone if you need it. It is important to work on you and yourself. That's amazing that you were able to find that outlet for your writing. And not only that, but you're giving it to the wider public so that we can find our peace in it as well. Thank you. Of course. So publishing takes courage. Um, you take your leap and you I wouldn't say mastered imposter syndrome because I feel like it's an ongoing battle.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

But yeah, no, no, imposter syndrome, I like to now joke, is my friend, and I just hold her hand and realize it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

But before we all know her.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah. Before, I mean, I actually saw I was I love psychology and I saw that imposter syndrome is really like a manifestation of being in a space that you've never been before. So it's really growth. But you when you walk into the room, you feel like you're not meant to be there. And like for anybody who feels that way, like just so you know, every interview, every podcast, everything I do, it's still right there roaring at me. And I just like have to be like, you know, it's just a protective mechanism of being somewhere I've never been. But I'd rather be scared and trying than bored and in the same place I always was.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

I think that's an a really awesome way to look at it. Imposter syndrome is just the uncomfortability of being in a space where you are moving forward or you're going out of your comfort zone. It's not so much about you not being capable of doing it, it's just you've never been there. So your brain's like, how do we act? What do we do in this space? Like this is new to everyone. Um, I like that. I'm gonna hold on to that as hard as possible.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, you just gotta like hold hands with it and keep going and being like, we're gonna figure it out. Cause the more people I meet too and levels higher up that you know, you would think they would have it. And they're like, oh no, of course not. And I'm like, okay, so we're all just like fumbling around trying to hide the fact that we're all scared of trying new things.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, I mean, um when I when Bethany, she's the one that started the mythic mic, um, when she asked me to join, I was like, me, like, why me? And then like sitting down with all the authors, I'm like, I'm not qualified to do this. But as I did it and you just get more comfortable, I'm like, you guys are people, you're humans, and I want to help uplift you and get your stories out there. And it became more of my journey, but I totally understand it is tough. It's one of those things you're just like, should I be here? Yeah. Constantly. Every day. So, what part of your creative journey brings you the most joy? Like when you're drafting, editing, the idea process.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

I would say, like, in just the drafting before the book's already like out and people get to read it. Really, it's staring at a blank document and knowing I have anywhere to go. Like I can take it wherever I want. That is forever my favorite thing. If I open up a new one and I write chapter one, I am the giddiest person alive because it's a mountain to climb, but it's my mountain and I get to decide all of it. And I think that's such a cool way to take all the ideas that have been kind of hanging out in my mind and finding a home and moving through the story. And every manuscript I've written, I find a lot out about myself along the way, which is also a really fun thing. So it's definitely the blank page. Editing is fun, and I'm thankful to have a wonderful editor, but it'll never be just pure creativity.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

I think that's I I always step like stare at a blank page and I feel so intimidated by it. I'm like, oh my gosh, there's so much I have in my head and I have to figure out how to put it all down. Um, but I like when you say that it you find out a lot about yourself because when I read stories and then I get to meet the author, I'm like, that makes sense. Like that's why they did that. Why, that's why they put it in. Like, and it's so wonderful to meet you in your story. So I like that we can kind of pour ourselves in our art and then, you know, let the world find out what we're about.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah. On the flip side of that, once the book is out, my favorite part is when a reader reads it and reaches out to me and says, Hey, this made me feel seen. Or here's something I was struggling with, and for a moment I didn't feel alone. Because I think as a reader, that's all I've ever looked for. And I think, like you're saying, as an artist, that's all you're trying to do is to take something that feels so specific to yourself and throw it out into the universe and realize that there are so many other people right along with you who feel the same way or struggling with the same things. And I love that connection because I think that's one of the most human things we do. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

So if you could go back and give your younger self some writing advice, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Oh gosh, like before conform, I would have just told the, like, I would have told her to have more fun with it. I was so serious about it. Um, and I think that's why I like a blank page now, is I I turned that narrative into something that like fits for me. Um, but to have fun. Ever like there's no new story, right? Every good story's already already been told. That's like a saying. And for me, that was so liberating because it's like, all right, I don't have to reinvent the wheel. I just need to make sure my wheel rolls because it's my voice that's some that somebody else can't bring to the table. And so that was such a freedom thing. And I wish I had figured it out a lot sooner because I was so hard on myself and so critical and like would look at all of these people that I admired and was like, I'm never gonna get there. So yeah, I would have just asked her to have more fun with it.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

You know what? I'm really glad that you said that. It's not about reinventing the real, it's about making sure it rolls, your story rolls. I'm not kidding. I just saw the recent Dracula and I'm doing a Dracula retelling. That's what I'm writing. So I went to go see the movie, and then I came out and I told my husband, I was like, they already wrote my book. I feel like they already wrote my book. And my husband's like, no, they haven't, because it's not you. You haven't written the book, so it can't be done already. And I was like, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

It is a good point. And it's like we like to get hard on ourselves, but like, let's be honest, if enemies to lovers, we can go back to Persephone and Hades, back to like Greek mythology. We're still telling the same story because we like it and because it like fits to people, so like, and it speaks to them. And so I think it's like, I think so many creatives get in their own way of how can I stand out? And you already do, like it's your voice. And so whether the story's been told doesn't matter. You're telling it now, and like you'll find your people who want to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yes, find your people. That's the don't worry about everybody else. You have your crowd. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

So let's get into your book. I'm really excited to learn about it and and this one's this one kind of messes authors up, so I don't know how how you feel about it. But for listeners miss discovery and conform, can you give us your elevator pitch?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

It does, it does mess authors up, and it's because it's an ocean in my mind, and that's such a pedal moment. They're like, take all of it. And I'm like, okay. Um, okay, so if you haven't read Conform, Conform is a dystopian romance that's sent in the future post-world war that's almost wiped out all of humanity where your worth is now in your genes. And so you have your genetically elite, your minor defect, and your major defect. And the elite live in the clouds and they have a lot of freedom. The minors live on the surface and they are in gray and they do a lot of like not fun jobs. And then the major defects basically make sure the city runs. They wear blue and they are hidden beneath the surface. And you follow Emmeline, who's a minor defect, who is chosen for a procreation agreement, and she finds herself tied to the highest level society, but then also finds and meets somebody from the lowest level. She gets caught between these two men, but also two sides of rebellion.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

I think I did it.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

It sounds so cool with such heavy themes.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yes. Yeah, it is. I tried to make it approachable for every person. If you want to go in and have a really fun love triangle and you want to have pretty dresses and pretty scenes, because that is a part of it, it's there for you. If you want to get into the nitty-gritty of the dystopian aspect of the themes, it is also very much there for you. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

I mean, like, and it's timely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

I mean, I don't love how timely it feels now. I do like the preface. I wrote this in 2020. I hate when a pa narrative, especially a dystopian, feels like it has any life outside the page. So that's unfortunate. But I think sometimes when you're trying to process things, you don't understand fiction is a great way to do it.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yeah, I I completely agree. And then having to deal with, you know, for your your character, having to deal with both sides. Like you didn't just decide that she was only going to deal with the obvious side. You were like, no, she's going to deal with both sides and get both narratives and explore the story from all around. Um, so that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Well, yeah, that was really inspired because of COVID. For better or worse. I think when the beginning of COVID, we all came together and we did things like this. And you saw people cheering for healthcare workers. And then as COVID went on, you saw a very strange divide take place where everybody was very determined that they knew the right way COVID should go. And I feel like unfortunately, that divide has only gotten worse. And I'm convinced that whether you agree with the person next to you or not, the moment you stop talking is when humanity dies. Like when you talk to judge and not to understand, it dies. And so Emily, I think, frustrates a lot of readers because she stands in that gray. Because my thought was what's getting lost in the gray as time keeps going. And she wears gray and she wants to see both sides. She does not see life as black and white. And in the world that she's in, in a totalitarian government, she's supposed to. And so it really is like an idea to let the reader think and see that there's good and bad kind of everywhere, and that it's not just like this line.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah. And I like that you use the symbolism of color. You mentioned that, you know, the middle is gray and that that's the goal, to see the gray, that it isn't black and white. That's very, very awesome. I think about this story a lot. And if you were to give us some comps for it, if you wanted to read Conform, what would you be looking at?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Books that are like it. Um, I think it's not a touch of handmaid's tale without some of the um gore, a little bit less of like it. That one's a little bit more into some themes that I left a little bit quieter in mine. A little bit of Hunger Games, I've heard. People have told me the uglies, even though I haven't read that in Selection. Somebody said Gattaca, which I've also not seen the movie, but that was one that has been told to me. Yeah, I don't really know if there's like any one thing. It's really a blend. If we want to go back to classic literature, I feel like I made a Brave New World in a 1984 sandwich, where Brave New World is the people in the clouds and they've got everything they could ever want and they're obsessed with it, and they just have more and more things. And then you have the minor defects who are where like in the gray, and they're very much 1984, very much overlooked, very much not told to think for themselves. It's kind of a weird pot of a bunch of different things.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

That's really awesome. Uh, for those of you that are listening, you guys have plenty. This story is going to really get you. I I mean, I've read both of those. Um, not everyone has read it. In high school, it was one of those mandatory reads when I was younger. Um, it is not anymore. So it's new literature for a lot of people now. But if you guys, I would recommend reading them and then going in to conform because you'll definitely, you'll definitely understand.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

So who are the key players in your story and what are the stakes for them? I mean, you explained some of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yeah. So you have uh the main character, the main uh female character is Emmeline. She is a 27-year-old minor defect with a visual defect. So she has hetochromia, so her eyes are different colors. And she, like I said, she sorts art in the ancient archives, which seems kind of like a worthless job, which you're gonna have to stick with me to find out why she's doing that. And then you have Colin, who is in the highest level of society. He's part of the eloom who like rule the city, and he's genetically elite, and he's very cold, he's known as the enforcer, and somehow in all that, he's also weirdly protective. So he gives a lot of mixed signals. And then you have Hal, who is a major defect, who is very charming, turns up out of nowhere for who knows what reason, and really gets her to think about things. One is trying to tell her that she needs to follow, and the other is trying to push her to think outside the box. And so you kind of get to see what each of those two paths bring out in her. Wow, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

I notice you kind of, you know, you like that third character a little. And would you like to talk about him?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Hal? Yeah, I do like Hal, and I feel bad. The internet's not happy with Hal, but I will say, give him a chance. He uh is very he's just a fun character to write. I mean, he never shuts up on the page, which is so fun to have, even sometimes annoying. And he's just this charming guy who comes in and uh makes a lot of mistakes. I've firm believer that every character should make a mistake. There's no perfect character in my books. They you will even the favorite character that you love more than anything, they will make a mistake and they probably will make you angry because that's life. Um and so yeah, he's he's really fun. He wears blue and he's charming and stirs the pot.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Look, when I ask you a question, I love Yeah, books like yours that have this world building where you have this very intricate, you know, world that that the reader then gets to visit and explore. Do you when you're crafting a story like Conform, do your characters inform your themes? Do you have these characters in mind and that kind of affects the themes that you're wanting to write about, or do you have themes in mind and then you kind of craft the characters? Like what comes first for you when you're writing a story like this?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

It really depends. Typically, a character comes into mind, but my themes are one of the main focuses. I actually, when I'm drafting, I map everything. I say I'm not a plotter and I'm not a pantser because both terrify me. One's too strict, and one is I can't not have a plan. Um, so I like to map, and in my maps, I do a thematical arc. So I like to know what I'm focusing on my book. And with that thematical arc, I compare it to my character arcs. And then in between that, I consider world building a character when I'm drafting. Cause for me, it's so much easier to think that this is an entity that I'm creating. Like, why was it made? What does it want? Once you know all that, what's it afraid of? Because once you know those things, crafting the rules and the laws feel very logical. You're like, of course. If like it's afraid of this, then this has to be what happens. And then the idea is if you craft that character right, your themes should shine and your character should have immediate tension. Because it's like, for me, it's like a trifecta of those three things. And then I kind of work through them to see how they're all growing. But themes are very important to me because I love a layered theme and can form a lot is about duality. It inspired Emmeline's eyes that she has a blue and a brown, and like she has two different paths that she's looking at. She has two different men. And so, like, I just love taking a theme and weaving it in as much as possible so that as the reader, you cannot escape it.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

That's awesome. Thinking of um, excuse me, world building as its own character is a really that I've never thought of that before. It makes me want to go back and read, you know, a ton of books and think of it that way. That's fabulous.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, I don't know if other people think of it that way. Just for me, it always felt very daunting to world build. I think for a lot of creatives, you're like, wait, I have to make an entire world. And I always saw it as like this expansive, expansive thing. And then breaking it down into a character, it's like, well, you know what your character wants and what they don't want. You know what they lie for, you know what they'd kill for. All of a sudden, all of those to me, as I was crafting conform, I was like, this all fits in the world building. And then it felt so simple. Like still a lot of depth and a lot of time, but it just was again, I've realized in this whole journey, it's reworking my own narrative and my own thought process in my own head that has been the most liberating process.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yes, I I I had the pleasure of speaking to Sarah Beth Durst, and she explained how in cozy fantasy it's the same. The world has to be its own character, like a hug around the actual character that you're playing. It the world is alive and it speaks for itself and it gives all these moods off and smells and feelings, and it has an objective. And I was like, wow, that's really impressive that you guys see the world and you're like, I have to do a character arc for the world. How will it change from the start of the world is going to be different for how the world is at the end. So it is in itself a living entity. I think that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yeah, I wish mine was cozy and wrapping arms around. Mine's more like a cliff. It's like tossing people off of it, but mine's slightly more villainous, but I do love the idea that other like creatives see it that way because it just it changes it.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Yeah. And because you're like Brett was saying, you have so many layers, you know, there's the top, the middle, and then the bottom, and each one serves its own thematic purpose and its own and it pushes characters and it moves them. So that's really awesome. So let's get into it. Let's talk about your prequel. Can you give us a little bit of what we're expecting? In your prequel, Beneath?

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yes, I can tell everybody listening that I'm not as good as this pitch because I have not been talking about it as much. So bear with me. But uh in crafting this character that is the world building, the past became very important to me. And so what was gonna be just background information when I was six chapters into drafting conform became its own trilogy, and that is beneath. And so I'm taking the readers back 200 years to right after the last war. And you get to find out how Emiline's society actually came to be. You follow all new characters, and the main character is Sasha. She is a 180 from Emmeline, where Emmeline is quiet and pensive and trying to figure things out. Sasha is act first, think later. She is always one step ahead of her emotions. She's lost everything, and she finds herself called into a unit who has a mission to save all of humanity, and she wants nothing to do with it. Um, it's about f found family and survival and the idea of what would you try to save and what would you be willing to do if everything you cared for was either taken from you or at risk. And you really get to look into like the depths of humanity. It's got a lot of really heavy themes. Um, it focuses on grief, focuses on depression, a lot of trauma. But yeah, it's a very different story, but it does, you'll start to notice in different themes that I love that it lights up and you should start to see how it ties together with Conform.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

So thankful that you wrote the prequel. Because there's always, there's always movies or books where they show you like after the war when society's already been established, the new society. Um, and then they give you like breadcrumbs of the past, but it's not the focal point. And I always wished that I was like, well, what happened? Can someone just show us what happened? So I'm glad you're like, here you we can see what happened.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Look, I have never been more happy to hear so many readers tell me this because I like to caveat, my publishers got behind me and you know, my editor got behind me. But when I first came to them and said, hey, my second book is going to be a prequel, um, there's a lot of hesitation. It's not something that's traditional. So I'm doing what I've like coined a dueling trilogy. And there was really a big push to like, no, you left them on this huge cliffhanger in conform. You've got to give them the sequel. And I was like, just will you trust me? I'm really, really like adamant about this. This is my vision. This is the creatively how I want to tell the story. And I give them so much credit. My editor read it, my publisher read it, and they got done with it, and they're like, we see it. And yes, let's do it. And so what having readers tell me, like, hey, I'm so glad, is like such like a sigh of relief for me because I was so anxious trying to make sure this worked. Cause like everybody agreed with me. And you have that again back to imposter syndrome, full circle. I was like, oh my God, did I make the wrong choice? And so it's lovely. So I'm so happy that you are enjoying it.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

But see, that's you conquering that imposter syndrome because you had the confidence and the wherewithal to know, like, this is the path that my story needs to take. And trust me, and I just that's amazing. Good for you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

I know what I love too is that I'm so glad that you're like, I'm gonna do this because it's just trust me, readers are like, yes, we want the sequel, of course, and you're gonna give it to us eventually. Yes. But it's also the feeling of being like, now we have more lore. Like, if we love your world, we want all the lore. Yeah. We want all your side quests and all your side books and all your novellas. So, like, when you have a strong readership, if this brings you any confidence at all, know that we want it all. So give everything you good.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Then I'll uh maybe I'll make it more than nine books. We'll see. But um well, and I've got a lot of lore.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

All of that prequel stuff too was is bound to just make the sequel that much more engaging when we know more about what's going on in this world. So I'm all for it. I think that sounds amazing. I'm so excited to read it.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Good. I'm so happy. Um, yeah, there's things in it that like if you you can read them standalone. I do like to caveat if you want to read them just on their own, you can. However, things will not lay in the same if you have not read Conform before you read Beneath. So it is they are interlocked and some of the reveals just won't hit.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

I know, because like when you think about it, like there's gonna be so much back, like back like history. Um, there's gonna be a lot of layers. And so when you go into the next book, you're gonna realize, like, oh my God, like I really understand the depth of this. Like I understand the journey, like I get where these people came from or how they got there, or how their families got there. Um So that that's what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

And I think I think the idea is too, is like you'll see Emmeline in a new light, and I think it'll really cheer her on how much she's willing to question the world and how to just how crazy it is that she can question it. And so that was part of it too. So it's makes her journey deeper. It makes everybody's um you're gonna look at simple terms that you've read a hundred times and conform, and you're gonna be like, oh, that is not the same term that I thought it was. So it's just all the little things. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

So, guys, we're gonna be spoiled. Um, super excited for that. I can't wait for the giveaways and hence we're doing a giveaway um of these books. You guys, whoever gets it, you're lucky. So, can you give us three emojis that capture the vibe of Beneath? Oh gosh, I have not been asked this.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

A broken heart, a bomb, and the crying emoji. Oh good. I'm sorry. I was really trying to look for a happy one. There's a character that has a laughing, like cry laughing one. He does that a lot. So um there's that, but for the most part, you're gonna be what's the Ron Weasley quote? Like you're gonna suffer, but you're gonna be happy about it. You know what?

SPEAKER_03 27:42

You are in the right community because I have never met a group of people like book people who are so excited and devastated by reading. I know.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

I know. It makes me so happy. They're like, it's darker. And then they're like, yes. And I'm like, okay, good, good.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

You're gonna really cry about it, but it's it's also it completely ruined my life and wrecked me emotionally. 10 out of 10. I would get 10.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah, I have people who have been tagging me and they're like, 10 out of 10, I'm not okay. I'll never recover. And I'm like, that's a good thing. Great. I'm glad I've had my people. Like we said, let's find them because I also was not okay drafting it and writing it. Does this have a romantic element in it? It sure does. It's a slow burn. And I like to say, you know, the in like in game of book one is there from very beginning. So you get to see all the different levels of how that comes to be. It's uh the main male lead is Tristan. He's quite dreamy. And I also like to say that you have to like him because he was a birthday present to my best friend who asked me to craft her the perfect book boyfriend. So please love him because she will be upset if you don't. But yeah, it's him. And then you've got all of Unit 7, and it really explores love more than just romance, too. The found family aspect is huge. Um that's played on part of my experience of being a military brat and how often I had to just find my family over and over again because I didn't get to obviously move with extended family. Um and also just what we all look for when times are hard and how that causes us to come together. So they're a really unusual bunch. Um, but I love them dearly, and I hope you guys do too.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

So, what character surprised you the most when you were drafting Beneath?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

I wouldn't say surprise me the most, but kept me on my toes is probably this character named Damien. Damien Cruz is levity in human form, and the way he brings and breaks a scene that feels very hard is really fun. Um so he kept me on my toes because it'd be like a really difficult scene. There's like one where they obviously they have to go above for this mission, and everybody's really worried, and there's like all this high tension, and he is making jokes in the corner and like somehow making you laugh. And so like I loved that about him. Um then the other character, I wouldn't say surprise me, but I was so uh moved by how he came on the page as a character named Levi. I really loved how he like came full, fully fledged onto the page because he had a role and he fulfilled it in ways that I didn't quite anticipate.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

I love when characters like come alive, you know, like they do their own thing. You think that as a writer we have all this control and we're moving the pieces, but as we write, they start to come alive and they start moving in ways that we never thought. And it's really amazing to see that, you know, come to the forefront when you're writing.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah. I mean, I joke that my writer or my characters are never listening or they're talking in my head. And for people who don't write, I think that's a very alarming statement to make. Uh for people who do write, you're like, oh, I get it. Because like that's part of the reason I don't like the plot is I feel like I pull my characters. If it's too plotted, I'm pulling them with the narrative that I want to tell. So that's why I always know my big moments in my like in my mapping idea of like I know the climax, the point of no return, all of these. And then I let my characters get me there. And sometimes they take a very circuitous route to get me there, or like they don't get me there in the way I thought. And I love that. So they do. They're very much noisy and alive in my head.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

I know the feeling. Uh it's like it's like you're playing, well, for me, I it's like playing a movie. So I'm like sitting there like zoned out. And I'm just like hearing them. They're seeing this and they're doing that. It's it's a wild thing, writing. It's it's wild. It's a lot of hallucinations and talking to yourself. Yes. Yeah, that's definitely part of it. So, what theme challenged you the most as a writer? You can talk about conform or veneath, how whichever you feel.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Which theme? Honestly, like it sounds like a there's two. I think love will always challenge me because it's easy to make a love that sells books or that we're all chasing, but to really get into the nitty-gritty of love and the different facets and to look at it from a platonic standpoint, from a partner standpoint, from a maternal standpoint, it's a the depth of love is very intimidating. And to realize that no one person's idea of love is really going to be the same as another. Like the way I want to be loved is not how somebody else, and allowing the characters to kind of tell me and guide me for what they want or if they're afraid of it and why, I think that is such a depth that will always intimidate me because I want it to be so specific to the character and hopefully that it finds that one person who's like, actually, that is how I like to be loved. It's not this. Um, and on the flip side of that, because I think this other emotion and theme is just the same as that, is grief. Um, and I I really think grief is just all the love with no place to go. And like I said, beneath really dives into grief heavily. Um, and not just grief of like a lost loved one, a grief of a lost way of life or a grief of a lost thing. Um, and that's difficult too because everybody grieves so differently. And so it's really trying to give those because the other themes, for me, like we are people with emotions, and those emotions are part of every decision we make. And so the emotions are always the things I want to get right because those will, if you believe a character's emotions, you will believe them when they, even when they make the wrong choice. You'll see why they do it. And so both grief and love are two that I always am trying to make sure that I get right for each person because obviously I can't experience love and grief in the way somebody else might want it. So really diving into that and trying to make sure that I'm representing a whole array of it has always been something I struggle with, but that I also enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

That's powerful. I I will say when I there was a lot of, I have a lot of history, like we all do, but I handled grief with anger. Like I found out that I was mad and didn't really understand why. And then after going to therapy, they're like, You're grieving. And I'm like, oh dang. And then I was like telling my husband, like, I'm not angry, I'm sad, like I'm grieving. Um, and coming and then it having a word for that and being able to sit with that and kind of walk the path, the not the correct path, but turning myself in a direction that allowed me to grieve in a way that wasn't like self-destructive. And that was very powerful. So it's amazing that you're able to write these themes and connect with people in different ways so they can see what it looks like and have words to it, you know, yeah. And words they never had before.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Yeah, I'm happy that you found the words. I just I love that you said grief can also be, you know, not just people, but a loss of a way of life, because going back to the COVID discussion, right? That was that was the hard thing, at least at the beginning, you know, for somebody speaking of anxiety, right? Somebody who likes to have control and then feeling like your world is just completely altered from what it was before and your schedule. And I also have I have two boys and a girl. And you know, just being stuck inside all day, every day. Like I thought, we're gonna go crazy.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah. And I think a lot of people did in different ways. And I think like you think, oh, crazy, you're gonna lose it. But I think it's more of like a loss of little things that you used to be able to do and like that little like erosion over time, like then all of a sudden we're two years in, and you look up and you're like, wait, what happened? Yeah. And it was definitely like that came into beneath a lot. And you know, there's a five-stage model of grief and a seven-stage model of grief. And beneath there's a unit and it has eight people in it, and Sasha's the main character, so she's excluded from that. But the seven characters are all a different stage of the seven stage of grief. And so it was a way to like personify like how you might handle it. Like, there's one who's all about anger. Um, and as the book goes on, you get to realize that that anger is actually, like you said, it's sadness. She's sad and she doesn't know how to say I'm sad. And so she just presents as angry, and then you've got one who's laughing all the time because they're in denial. And there's just all these different things. And I thought it was a really cool way for people to see, and like then you can be like, I am grieving, but I'm just not grieving like them because I'm not at that stage yet. And like one of the characters who seems to be the grumpiest is actually the one who's in acceptance. And it's like a it's a cool way to see too that, like, yeah, you may move through it and you may still just be this version, and that's okay. And so, yeah, it was definitely like a whole like everything that happened in COVID, my own depression, my own grief for things in my life that weren't people that I'd like didn't give myself an ability to grieve. Because, like you're saying, it's hard to grieve something when you realize somebody else is grieving something so much you think it's bigger. And so this book is all of that. So it is heavy, but there's also a lot of fun moments, electric caveats. So you will laugh with me. But uh, you will also cry with me. Um, and I think you need that. I think that's what we look for in books is that place where it's like, I'm afraid to feel this feeling, but within this fictional world, I can let it go. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

And I'm just so happy that this literature is being written because we endured COVID, but we didn't a lot of us, I would say, didn't process it. We were just going through it and trying to survive and accepting what our new normal was for the time. And then when we got out on the other side, a lot of us were like, it was like a blip that, and now we have to process it. So being able to sit down and, like you said, go through fiction and fantasy um and be able to like see your feelings on the page and see yourself reflected is very healing. So that's it. I'm excited to read this, and I'm I'm glad I know going in that it's gonna destroy me.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

It will, but it'll also put you back together. I think it I'm a firm believer that in feeling it you feel whole at the end too. So it's uh it's a journey though, and I don't like to downplay the seriousness of some of the themes in it. So if it's something you're not ready to read, I totally respect that.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Yeah. So without giving up too many spoilers, do you know where the story is going next? After Beneath?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

I sure do. I sure do. Um my map has that all laid out. Uh, we're going back to the sequel after Beneath to conform. I can give you the name because it has been on the internet now, and I'm not sure how exactly, but it's core. And it is we're picking up right where we left Emmeline off. So if you finished Conform and that cliffhanger's killing you, there's no time jump. You're coming right back to where we left her. It's a big book. I'm in edits for it right now. She's a hefty, hefty girl. I love her for that. But yeah, she's she's about 200,000 words. So I hope you guys are all ready to really stick with me for all the lore and the twists and turns because all secrets will be revealed.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Wow. 200,000, that is impressive. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

It's a I was not expecting that when I sat down. I was like, yeah, probably like 150. Um, and for anybody listening, conform's like 135. Beneath is like 140 something. And I was like, yeah, 150, 160. It's gonna naturally get a little bigger. And I got to 160, and I was like, I still have like 10 chapters to write. Oh my God. Um, and so yeah, and thankfully I sent it off to my editor and I was ready for the whole, hey, we have to cut. And she was like, no. And I was like, really? Like, I got so excited. Obviously, we have to trim it and clean it and do all the things you do in editing, but uh, yeah, I was very excited. But she's she's big, so I know that I'm leaving you on a cliffhanger and giving you a prequel, but I will be giving you a lot when she's ready.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

We are spoiled. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna give you the main story, all the lore, and then a big old jam bib.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

All of it. Um I mean, I feel spoiled because readers are so bought in, and like that's I think that's every writer's dream is to have a reader say, like, I want to hear what you have to say. Um, and so I feel incredibly spoiled by like the response and the amount of people who reach out to me. Um, I am trying to keep up with my direct or my messages on Instagram. It is becoming difficult, but please know that I love it when people reach out because love when someone gives me a story about how they feel seen or feel easier to carry. It's been the coolest, coolest process to take a very isolating job and connect with people.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Yes. Well, thank you so much for talking about your books. We're so excited for them. But now we're gonna go into our rapid fire questions. Are you running? I'm ready. Which character would get in the most trouble if you were best friends? Gregory. Which character would fail a lie detector text within 30 seconds? Emily, every second. If your villain had a PR team, what would their slogan be? Always watching. That's appropriate. That's that sounds pretty spot on. Yeah. What's the most random thing you Googled while writing this book? Um different parts of a bomb. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

You're like, I'm on a list somewhere. I'm on a list for sure. Between that and a couple other ones, I'm sorry, people. It was for fiction, not real. Don't come find me.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

On a scale of emotionally fine to we need therapy, where all the readers be by the final thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

They're gonna be pretty close to the we need therapy, but hopefully in a good way, like in a cathartic way.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

They're like, I'm gonna go back and process now that I know what it looks like to like what I have the feelings. Yeah. If readers texted you at 2 a.m. after finishing your book, what would the message say?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

I get a lot of how could you for the I get a lot of how dare you, how could you? That's diabolical. Those are typically the ones, and I do get them at two in the morning of like, I'm sorry. I have to send you this message right now.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

And I'm like, I'm really sorry. I feel like we're just in a weird dark era because a lot of authors have been saying that lately.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Like you guys have just been destroying us, but we're we want more. We're like, we're here exactly like how could you, how dare you, and I would love some more right now.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Yes, yes. And then it's always, do you need a street team for the sequel? Let me know. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

I'm going to make other people hurt.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah. I mean, it's readers, it's what we do. There's something probably there, but I I'm not gonna look into it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

But we love you for it. Yes. Well, thank you so much, Ariel, for coming on the show and telling us all about your books. We're so excited for everything that's coming. Um, and we can't wait for Beneath. For everyone that wants to find you, uh, where should they go?

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Um, I have Instagram and I've got a website as well that's got different events on it where you can purchase tickets. I am going on tour in two weeks, about two weeks, um, for Beneath. So come see me if I'm in your city, come say hi. Um, I also started TikTok at 35. That's been a humbling experience, but I am there if you'd like to come um laugh with me at me, whatever it is that we're doing on that. Uh but yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Awesome. So you know where to find her and pre-order her book now so you guys don't miss out on all the amazing things we just spoke about. Thank you so much, Britt, for coming on as well. You're an awesome and delightful and aerial. It's been so fun to get to know you and your book better. Thanks so much for having me. I love this. Well, you guys will see you next time and have a good rest of your week. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

That's it for this chapter of the Mythic Mike Podcast. But the adventure doesn't end here. Subscribe, leave a review, and follow us on social media at Mythic Mike Pod for updates, giveaways, and all the bookish and writing fun. Want more? Join our newsletter at mythicmike.com for bonus tips, other insights, and behind the scenes magic. Until next time, stay mythical.